 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
Kakabelly Esq.
Admin
|
Posted: Wed Nov 4th, 2009 09:51 pm |
|
see stabroek news today
http://www.stabroeknews.com/2009/stories/11/04/gunmen-attack-two-police-stations-fire-set-at-high-court-richard-ishmael-school/
|
Calypso
Moderator
| Joined: | Sat May 22nd, 2004 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 8533 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Nov 4th, 2009 10:55 pm |
|
'channa bombs' ?  
Richard Ishmael school? ........ is that IETC? .... Ketch?
|
nandypark
Member
| Joined: | Thu Oct 20th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 5380 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 02:06 pm |
|
very sad the way the security situation has deterioated in guyana...
jagdeo should be drawn and quartered....
|
Kakabelly Esq.
Admin
|
Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 04:03 pm |
|
| Nandy, please explain what you mean by re Jagdeo
|
nandypark
Member
| Joined: | Thu Oct 20th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 5380 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 04:17 pm |
|
as far as I know, the buck stops there... at jagdeo's desk.
it is under jagdeo's watch that guyana became a big player in the narco trade.
it is under jagdeo's watch that guyana security's became what it is today.
ppp far more corrupt and incompetent than forbes...
mind you, i hate the pnc and all it stands for but the ppp and jagdeo not above criticism.
|
sir bim
Member
|
Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 05:57 pm |
|
| you need a ruthless dictator...i'm serious leave out the racial tones just victimise and harass everybody, trust me i won't be long before usa roll in to secure the oil and gas then you'll be their bitch get with chavez now beegee men.
|
mapoui
Member
| Joined: | Wed May 26th, 2004 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 21733 |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 06:12 pm |
|
sir bim wrote: you need a ruthless dictator...i'm serious leave out the racial tones just victimise and harass everybody, trust me i won't be long before usa roll in to secure the oil and gas then you'll be their bitch get with chavez now beegee men.
it is dictatorship dat cause all this..dictatorship of one kid or another.
the people must end dictatorship by takibg over and making a democracy where here is none now
____________________
King of The Beasts
|
Kakabelly Esq.
Admin
|
Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 06:23 pm |
|
The PPP is not above criticism, correct. But i think the dynamics of the narco trade changed when they came to power. A long time ago, just before ppp won the election, i read in a magazine that guyana was becoming the pipeline and exit point, due to tightening and high visibiltiy of the other countries. things silently happened in guyana. when the ppp came to power, what was already there, took off.
as you can tell, the govt. cannot be in all places all the time. in my opinion it is easy to blame govt. but guyana has changed and it will not be the way it used to be years ago. i dont want to blame jagdeo for what is happening today.
but there are problems in guyana and i think the biggest one is underground anti-govermnet forces trying to create a state of chaos, panic and instabilty. by so doing, they want to create a perception that the country is un-governable or it is a failed state. they are getting help from the anti government media - people like frederic kissoon.
i was in guyana last summer - doing some charitable work - and plan to be there soon, again. i saw the change in the people, much for the better. i saw less racism but i also saw other problems - the emergence of a lot of big businesses run by indians. they disproportionately exist in the country and the perception is not a good one. the country could face major problems in time to come.
i think indians would not vote for pnc for obvious reasons - well because they dont want to go back to burnham kinda years. but i think indians would drop the ppp like a hot potato if they had a real alternative. the afc is not an alternative - rather an offshoot of pnc.
indians may dominate in the government and in private enterprise but they are a psychological minority. this is where the change is needed. the cia/brits left guyana in a mess by making the army and police force, dominantly black. if the army/police force could be balanced ethnically, then no one would fear the other. then be it black or inidan people would vote for who they want. they would know that no so and so army is not gonna come and kill them. that would be a solution, i think.
if that cannot work then i think guyana has to rethink the whole constituion and move to a sort of USA system - devolution of power bases. the usa constitution was scripted so no ONE could take over the country like a king. could this not work in guyana?
Overall, I am sickened and sad about guyana. everytime I get connected with the country I become hearbroken, dejected, hopeless and yes fearful.
nandypark wrote:
as far as I know, the buck stops there... at jagdeo's desk.
it is under jagdeo's watch that guyana became a big player in the narco trade.
it is under jagdeo's watch that guyana security's became what it is today.
ppp far more corrupt and incompetent than forbes...
mind you, i hate the pnc and all it stands for but the ppp and jagdeo not above criticism.
|
nandypark
Member
| Joined: | Thu Oct 20th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 5380 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 06:37 pm |
|
all valid points kaka...
guyana needs a different kind of system... I understand the problems jagdeo inherited especially with the police force and the army and these cannot be understated.
Jagdeo should have responded to these threats when the prison escapes, stolen guns and mayhem started...
do you think forbes would have tolerated the amount of guns in the public hands that now exists in guyana??
|
ketch_im
Member
| Joined: | Mon Feb 27th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 19390 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 07:04 pm |
|
Calypso wrote: Richard Ishmael school? ........ is that IETC? .... Ketch?
Yeah .....I once threatend Ishmael that i would bun down de school .
I was a radical President of the Students Council back then ...
So , Channa is now the new Molotov Cocktail !! 
____________________
Certified Cricketer
|
ketch_im
Member
| Joined: | Mon Feb 27th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 19390 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 07:06 pm |
|
nandypark wrote:
do you think forbes would have tolerated the amount of guns in the public hands that now exists in guyana??
Forbes wouldda had a tough time Contolling the Drug monies used to purchase hi tech
equipment and arms .......Superior to the Police and Army !!
____________________
Certified Cricketer
|
nandypark
Member
| Joined: | Thu Oct 20th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 5380 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 07:09 pm |
|
| ketchie what wrong with you, its forbes boys who would have cornered the drug market.. a big monopoly so no turf war...
|
mapoui
Member
| Joined: | Wed May 26th, 2004 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 21733 |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 07:56 pm |
|
forbes wudda get overrun. wuss if initially he embraced the drugs industry.
control probably wudda grow from the inside, outward to infest an corrupt the whole goverment and it bureaucracy, sweepin forbes aside fuh people with 'real' constitution like Uribe in Colombia.
such people can absolutely anything at all. I suspect forbes was of a somewat softer variety
Guyana like Colombia wudda been a Narco state today and Guyanes would have been worse off than undah forbes proper.
Last edited on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 08:00 pm by mapoui
____________________
King of The Beasts
|
mapoui
Member
| Joined: | Wed May 26th, 2004 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 21733 |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 08:11 pm |
|
de best way to protect a state is..and has always been... to make a democracy and give everybody a stake in their country.
dat means of course dat the domestic opposition to such a democracy must be defeated and eliminated.
when dat is achieved and the people have a stake deh will fight the world to keep it. no matter the bribes the world offers
dat is how Cuba has stood so long. peoples memories are long and deh remember wat is was like in the 'old days'...a reality they effectively transmit to their children.
the ordinary folk through long and massive suffering know the enemy and will give no quarter when deh have a real stake in their country.
if all guyanese had such a stake no narcos cud survive. no matter where deh hide the epople would know and give them up
I watching Chavez in Venezuela as he beings to balk at the speed at which the ordinary folk moving towards socialism. if Chavez does not join the people and give them a real stake in the society, he will create tdivision and disturbance and opportunity for the the opposition elites to slip through and derail the revolution.
if the revolutuion is derailed and the elites regains the power there is no mystery about what would happen
____________________
King of The Beasts
|
mapoui
Member
| Joined: | Wed May 26th, 2004 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 21733 |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 08:14 pm |
|
i saw less racism but i also saw other problems - the emergence of a lot of big businesses run by indians. they disproportionately exist in the country and the perception is not a good one. the country could face major problems in time to come.
was there Sir kakabelly, something organised and poweful that was/is stopping Afros from starting-up big businesses in Guyana?
____________________
King of The Beasts
|
Kakabelly Esq.
Admin
|
Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 11:04 pm |
|
There is/was but when there are problems, people are not interested as to WHY so and so exist. All they know is that it is/was so.
The reasons are many ( my view ). Some black people have got things going. Many are contractors -like building contracts, construction contractors.
coming back to these ideal states - is Cuba the only one you know of? Have you been there Maps? Lot of people will not support you on this one..
mapoui wrote:
i saw less racism but i also saw other problems - the emergence of a lot of big businesses run by indians. they disproportionately exist in the country and the perception is not a good one. the country could face major problems in time to come.
was there Sir kakabelly, something organised and poweful that was/is stopping Afros from starting-up big businesses in Guyana?
|
mapoui
Member
| Joined: | Wed May 26th, 2004 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 21733 |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 11:51 pm |
|
speech is imprecise as deh say...and there is ones own perspective, as well as the biases of so many others that impact on ones perspective when one is considering anything, including an opinions of some sort.
so it it is touhg wouth lengthy contack to understand what anyone is saying.
it is with this in mind I say that I never meant that Cuba was a perfect state. it cannot be. but what is a perfect state?
my definition is simply that nations are allowed to deal with their internal development without skunt imperial activities always impeding human development by conquest and exploitation.
if I had the means I would hold every imperialist who ever lived, ressurect those who dead and gather dem in one spot and torture dem forever, mc and dem.
I wud pay special and very delicate attention to the Jews and dem of today, for an array of torture exquisite, fine, 'aged to perfection' yet all the more effective fuh dat!
I hold Cuba up for many reason, like I hold Venezueal up as well. Iran too for a most magbificent effort at developing their situation under constant western pressure, torture really, from their revolution in 1979....
these are not perfect countries but they have tried and are determined to forge independent paths in th world to the chagrin of the empire and its equal determination to squash their 'insurbordination', while returnintg them to the fold of subservience, supplication to the emperial centre.
so check what I say man. it is all relative, never absolute! I cant be absolute about life. I never found anything absolute about and in life!
Last edited on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 11:52 pm by mapoui
____________________
King of The Beasts
|
mapoui
Member
| Joined: | Wed May 26th, 2004 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 21733 |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 12:54 am |
|
Kakabelly Esq. wrote: There is/was but when there are problems, people are not interested as to WHY so and so exist. All they know is that it is/was so.
The reasons are many ( my view ). Some black people have got things going. Many are contractors -like building contracts, construction contractors.
coming back to these ideal states - is Cuba the only one you know of? Have you been there Maps? Lot of people will not support you on this one..
mapoui wrote:
i saw less racism but i also saw other problems - the emergence of a lot of big businesses run by indians. they disproportionately exist in the country and the perception is not a good one. the country could face major problems in time to come.
was there Sir kakabelly, something organised and poweful that was/is stopping Afros from starting-up big businesses in Guyana?
but yu duck mih question is wat yu did:was there Sir kakabelly, something organised and poweful that was/is stopping Afros from starting-up big businesses in Guyana?
yuh frighten! yuh do want to get involve i a racial debate! dats why I arks yu anyway because I know you dissemble and ease away from it!
man look here! I know something about this question and I have said some of wa I know!
blac people have problems dat prevent we doing what we must do. but hose problems of lac people must not hold back Indians. and I notice it does not anyway!
and there is no need to slink away from the issue!
Apart from a few families I dont know dat blac people own much in the westindies save piddling liltle things here and there.
black people! some blac people make a lot of money from political corruption...the political classes.
the westindian political class have ceded the comanding heifghts of the economy to the white owners while the cury favour and and take bribes for smoothing the white owners way in the region.
along with the professionals who work for big salaries doing the profession work necessary for the corporations to continue plundering the region, the political classes have made wat is the westindies elites.
there are Indos in there too, lots of them. and the Indo political class is no different from the Afro one...so they form one class. and their racial politics is to keep the ordinary peole and organised in the ways it is necessary to keep the crap going, to preclude any possibility that ordinary Indos and Afros cee eye to eye, come together and have a nice and good, good and nice, little revolution.
but Afros have our 'little' emotional problem vis a vis white people. we fried when it comes to dealing with white people. we gih dem everything, house and lan', free sheet to own the country, and to do watever deh want wid oui!
if it wasnt fuh Indos watever could be owned in the westindies would have been given away by Afros to whites. so Indos doing things, owning things, making it possible to own more, to take oer the place as the white power weakens and recedes.
the missing fucking ingredient is a competitieve Afro perspective and program in the region, that equalises the situation, takes care of the Afro interest, develops it and ensures that there never will come a time when Indos own everything and Afros have nutten.
yu see fuh 50 yesr since independence the so-called blac westindian elite ignoring the problems of blac people, and setting the stage for an awful situation in the future for our people.
yu see wat I mean! I not attacking Indos for opening up businesses. thats the right way to go.
yu cyar stop a people from taking care of themselves. if yuh have sense yu doh want to stop a people from doing so! dats wat they suppose to do...wat we suppose to do too.
and we doh want to stop any development for and in the region thats good fuh de region. we want to join up dats wat...to do fuh weself...to get we part of the action and so maintain balance in the region even if it is competitive balance.
the movement have to be competititve before it join up and bcome national..a nationalist orientation dat builds up over time as people develop huge stakes in the region....an orientation that everybody share as and for defense of the nation... which would be defense of their material interest, embedded in and protected in the nation and the national well-being.
I wish to highlight the irresponsibility of the blac westindian leadership and the catastrophe they preparing in the westindies.
the empire will not always be there. today we can dislimn on the horizon its limits, the day when it will be gone. wen dat day is gone deh will be get fed from corporations dat no longe exists.
and the type and flavour of doing busines that would exist in the world then seems based purely on profficiency in iternal development and trade based on need and ability to paythe national way.
already the chinese and d russians do business dat way. china does not go about the world with a big stick beating people and stealing their resources. they make business deal of all kinds the proficient development of which leades to global prosperity.
the world to come will not be kind to supine, parasitic and dependent elite classes. betraying their own people to rapists to get fed.
and as that world dawns the least in the world as usual are Afros...by betrayal and neglect by our own leadership classes.
we know the problems and how to go about solving them. but the opportunists in the blac life all rose up to exploit the blac revolution of the sixties and seventies, to betray it and profit from it.
hence the state of blac life everywhere! we have been sold out by our own crroks and criminals who segued to the top and colluded with old' marse, to replace the old colonialism with a new modern face to continue fooling the people endlessly.
the rise of Obama, the most complete blac betrayal of all, is fitting flower and crown to the betrayal that started with Jesse Jackson and Vernon Jordon, Andrew Young and business men like Bob Johnson.
now apparently we can even count the Minister Louis Farakhan among that rotten class of blac people who supp at the table of the devil himself.
to read the news paper of the Nation of Islam now, the Final call is to wade through such a mess of praise and innacurate presentation of Obama to the people that I dont even bother to read the damm wrag anymore.
as the whole world has awoken to the fake and the fraud Obama is, the Final Call help to keep blac people in support the damm fool and manchurian candidate Obama..who only proceeded as president to hand america over to the Jews.
there are white people whom Obama fooled completely seething with rage at Obamas betrayal, the manner in which he has given america away, destroyed the Union and the constitution that they believe they love.
it is time blac people put distance between Obama and the ethnic group, leave him to hang, out there as the Zionsist he actually is...kept the phucker swing in the wind to be cut to pieces by those he fooled so completely and gave their country away.
it is time to re-discover the blac program which is an inclusive, universalist, ani-war program..
it is time to hone our program again and present it to the world one more time, the blac program as expressed by MLK and Malcolm..to expose Obama for the deviant he actualy is, the complete and proper representative of all that is nasty and traitorous in blac life... and the blac elites who have stolen and fucked up gutted the blac revolution of all its positive potential, globally, since the sixtries in te USA, and the age of independence in africa, the westindies and the world
the current blac eites have led blac people into a dead end, a cul de sac, a 4-cournered room from which there is no escape save by eliminating that elite and starting over.
____________________
King of The Beasts
|
Kakabelly Esq.
Admin
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:08 am |
|
Okay Maps
Cuba, Venezuela and Iran.
You certainly have a pattern but you have to admit, you are on the fringe or perhaps even an extremist. Therefore, how much weight will YOUR arguments carry - perhaps none. I dare say if you admit openly that you admire these countries you will be put on uncle sam's most dangerous list
i listened to amahadinejad at the UN ( not his whole speech) but until then, he sounded more like a nationalist rather than a rouge. i have always considered castro more of a nationalist than a dictator. i dont know much of chavez but he seems like a rogue to me. please dont give me reading on chavez - it wont help. i think i have a distaste/prejudice against his radicalism.
|
Kakabelly Esq.
Admin
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:24 am |
|
| i did not duck and hide. i tired explaining. i just wat it is/was.
|
mapoui
Member
| Joined: | Wed May 26th, 2004 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 21733 |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:48 am |
|
I am not loking fuh nutten...expect my argument to kerry no weith or watever.
I looked at situation as deeply as I am able to and found out what I believe to be some truth.
I am a victim and I wish to do something about my victimhood
so out I toss my opinion and if it is valid and useful it will help. if not it will be ignored.
dats all!
yuh let emotion get into this thing way to much yu know Sir K. there is nutten new under the sun. all this has been going around and each generation hs it work to do, its contribution to make.
I sent you the bio by Prashad of Prebisch today, so you could get an idea of how the stff we are dealing with here, was developing wa back at the turn of the last century and how it go to this point.
and of course Prebisch a man who was very much involved on the progressive side. yu cyan get a real sense of th intense ideoogical sruggle going on in the world between the imperialist and the exploited.
from there you can work it out and down to the suffering individuals in our world, Guyana, Titty, all...
Chavez is not a rogue o anything of the sort! he is a man formed by a certain experience and is who he is as a result.
it should be very interesting follwing the Venezuealan situation from this point. Chavez may have come to his personal waterloo. the Venezueal people have pushed him farther and faster than he wants to go apparently.
recently he lashed out at the Venezuealan electricty worked accusing them of wanting chaos or some such thing. the workrs are locked into a battle with the bureaucracy of the department that regulates the aer of electicity production and distribution and wish to impose themselves as bureaucracies do on the workers to their disadvantage
this is a very normal strugle which can only end ultimately in worker success and control of the department, the reduction or elimination f the bureaucracy etc.
Chavez got pissed and lashed out at the workers contrary to all he supposedly stands for.
all that means then that Chavez himself is not a socialsit and that he has probably gone as far as he can and his own self is rebelling aganst himself
well if that is the case he is between a sharp rock and a sharper rock. he cant go back...the elites and capitalist dont want him. and the only way he can save himself and all he has done so far is to deppend the revolution, fully socialise Venezueala and get out of the way of the people.
if he does not he will turn the people against him and there will be opportity for the imperial forces to get back in and ultimately turn the situation around.
of course if the elites win get the power again the will kill all the of the progressive forces as the imperilais and their local minions do in such situations. the decimate or eliminate the left in effort to ensure they never rise again.
that is what Chavez must remember in his own internal idrological strugles.
if he cannot go all the way wth the working classes and ordinary people of Venezuela, who went into the streets in their millions to save his life and reinstate his power, he should resing and make way for the real radicals to do their thing
____________________
King of The Beasts
|
nandypark
Member
| Joined: | Thu Oct 20th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 5380 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 02:03 pm |
|
| i dont think that there is anything systematic in afro guyanese not establishing big businesses... the traditional business class in guyana were always the portuguese and indians... i am talking from since forbes days....
|
mapoui
Member
| Joined: | Wed May 26th, 2004 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 21733 |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 03:55 pm |
|
systematic or not..and it is systematic.... if Afros fallin' behind...and from all reports and indications we are, that the future doh look good fuh we...den we have to find a way to correct dat.
if involvement in business is the way den dat is wat we must do. if its an intensified mix of business and professionalism in in sports the sciences and arts, teaching etc., den dat is wat we must do.
if collectively we have a serious emotional disability or defect regarding white people as legacy from 400 years of being prisoners, den we have to address dat like yesterday...not allow it to fester away, eating away blac life and chances1
a great inequality seems to be building up in Titty and Guyana.. no one seems to be talking about it mentioning it etc.
responsibility for dt inequality is no ones fault but blac peoples. we now know the cause of our problems and we have to deal with dat cause...denature it, sliminate its effect on us and let wither away as shit dat like ought to be put to rest...
it is either we correct our historical baggage or lay down and die as far as I see.
look at wat we allow to become of westindies cricket! look at the behaviour of the wicb all along! Look at he quality of a man like Gayle, how he has conducted westindies business as captain etc! look at the leadeship up and down westindian terroritories!
how does all dat equate with a people who know what their self interest is?
in whose favour is the decline and destruction of westindies cricket?
in no ones favour, even those who think it might be.
there is the argument that successful westindies cricket is a revolutionary support for the westindian people, and to pre-empt revolution the westindies cricket team must be weak and defeated or eliminated altogether.
but Oz, hingland, South Africa, Sri Lanka, India, Pakistan etc all have cricket teams dat at one time or another were top of the heap. no revolution although the peoples of these countries were 110% in favour of team, pout in droves all over the place.
if cricket has been even more to the westindian people than that why would they be revolutionary as focused on cricket and the unified success of the westindies as source of inspiration?
is it because their region has been made to fail as its exploitation has been facilitated by its own elites and the people do not have a stake in wat remains of their society, all being of the remainder monopolised by these same elites?
so our elites have created a very limited social reality in which they grab all thats there after allowing ole marse to feed...and are afraid of the people because deh are fully aware of wat deh have done to the region. deh therefore must collude to destroy all that will fillip and succor to the ordinary folk, to starve dem of any sustenance tha may provide a spark that would light a fiyha dat wud spread quickly beyond their control.
but westindian society is an ethnically divided demographically, and the other ethnic constituents of our reality do not operate that way. they have created within their groups affirmative action progams based on ethnicty to faciliate their own development and escape from the material strictures imposed on the westindies by the Afro led neo colonialism and dictatorship.
where Indos and others develop outwards by their onw efforts, smarts and understanding of the situation, Afros are locked into the depraved fuckery of the blac leaderhsip of jamaica, Titty and the dots which avidly seek to keep the westindian people ignorant and so keep their power intact.
this ignorance produces idiot players too stupid even to make use of their abilities, to correct their own obvious technical flaws, to function as a unit, making an ashole of the westindies all over the world in silly and continual defeat...where once our cricket intelligence at least was supreme, adaptive and fluid and so champion of the planet.
deliberate policy of neglect of the blac westindian population has produced decline everywhere, most particularly in the human prodcut...the Afro product.
all the while Indos progress in business, the professions, Afros are increasingly locked into ghettos fed by crash programs of temporary employment cleaning the streets, cutting grass and sundry nonsense.
were it not for athletics and soccer, american scholarships etc., singing kaiso, bending wiyah fuh marse' beating pan etc, there would be little or nothing for blac youth to look forward too in the westindies.
and all the while in blac areas, ghettos the drug trade as a way out, increasingly violent with modern handguns and rifles that are so powerful to get wounded by one is to die shattered, just as if one was directly shot.
thats what the blac elites have accomplished with their neo colonialism. dat is the case I have against all the fathers of independence and regard dem in no such way, accord dem no such honor as to refer to them as fathers of anything, save the shit their political and class descendants have inherited, now administer as if the old men were still running things.
in another generation or so, I fear to contemplate wat the condition of most blac people in the westindies will actually be. lawd ah mercy!
so watever the hell dats there systematic or not...and it is systematic....westindian Afros must get up and find a way through and out.
by the conditions that way would have to collective...but wen you talk collective with individualistic to a fault blac people yu know at yu get!
there are solutions, obvious and clear. but the people have been made stupid, are stupid and backward, emotional where clear discursive heads ought to prevail.
I trying to put blame where it actually lies. I dont see dat it is the responsibility of Indians to solve blac problems save that Indians are part of the nation and when deh find demselves in elected power they must address the problems of the nation as a whole.
also as citizens of the nation, functioning as citizens then all that goes on in the nation is everybodys business and all msut conribute to the solution.
so from the point of civics there is that civic responsibility to participate fully and progressively, in the national social process!.
thin lines I guess must be drawn however where a plural society is concern and different perspectives lead to different approaches and varying levels of social success of the different groups as a result
it might make sense and be very civic for Indians to employ some blac people in their enterprises...not for charity but where the needs of the enterprise and the skills of the Afro intersect to the benefit of both parties.
same way in investment. Indian captital would do itself and the region no harm if it sought out blac enterprise, starved of capital from traditional sources, vetted projects as to their viability, setting them up if viable, realising profit and expansion that would only to more profits and increasing the general well-being and social peace in the nation.
that is the civic way Indos can help in changing the reality for the better at no loss to themselves...which is the ideal way to go forward.
and when in government, or even in oppostion Indo political power for its own benefit as well, could support and help to grow the blac progressive movements, those that point to the basic nature of the problem and effect basic cures, from the ground up, that would solve the problems fully in short time too.
when blac people create small schools that address the our historical problems and need help to expand, right there the civic-minded Indian power can lend a hand. any and all such 'REAL' effort effort the Indian politcal power can adhere too and boght can grow together for mutual benefit..solid progressive votes in the Afro section, for a sane and prgressive Indian politcal power that would not now be Indo but nationalist.
so when I say Indians are not responsible for blac progress and must not hold themselves back I wanted to highlight blac basic responsibility in the matter.
but all of the people are responsible for the nation and there are many cooperative ways of mutual benefit, that may be employed by all demographic groups in cooperation, to solve the social problems, bypass and destroy the old nasty way of life and doing business, and remove from power those who uphold dat way and live by it.
____________________
King of The Beasts
|
sir bim
Member
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 04:13 pm |
|
mappy kaka ketchy i know ya'll think i'm jesting but i'm deadly serious, look would western democracy work in saudi arabia? we cannot always base governance by usa/british standards.
Now in terms of the caribbean its a harsh place built on prejudice, patronage and victimisation, truth is we don't know what the fack to do with freedom its a burden, in a place like guyana someone needs to run the country harshly without fear of elections, judicary etc, someone who can make real changes without skunts taking to the streets bunning down people house and interfering wid people girl children, by all means encourage, endeavour but punish greed and exploitation.
Guyana needs a ghana Jerry rawlins
|
ketch_im
Member
| Joined: | Mon Feb 27th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 19390 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 06:17 pm |
|
http://www.guyanachronicle.com
Jagdeo should invade the U.S.A. and root out the Terrorists...
____________________
Certified Cricketer
|
Kakabelly Esq.
Admin
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 06:35 pm |
|
Dear Sir Bim
I think you are as disheartened as I am, hence your comments. You cannot mean what you say.
The whole Caribbean is young. Britain did not get where it is overnite. Nor did America. Nor did France.
I am responding to this post - some questions raised by Mappy - in a very very long paper right now. I am writing in a word document. I will cut and paste in an hour or two. I hope you will take a read and then participate in this discussion. Thanks
|
ketch_im
Member
| Joined: | Mon Feb 27th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 19390 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 10:04 pm |
|
| http://www.guyanachronicle.com/topstory.html#Anchor------------29435
____________________
Certified Cricketer
|
Kakabelly Esq.
Admin
|
Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 02:01 am |
|
Maps here my response to your question. You wanted to know what stopped Blacks from getting in business. I hope it helps.
Nandy, no. it was Portuguese and Chinese. but during Burnham years, those ethnic groups, left easily because of money and some say favorable immigration rules, left the country.
Indians used to refer to Chinese as Massa when they went into their shops. Portuguese and Afros got along better; Indians were excluded from the Portuguese circles.
What you have to understand, and Dr. Walter Rodney is the leading Guyanese Black man to address this, is that Indians existed at plantation levels as nothing more than laborers. They were not in businesses for the most part, they were not in the professions (medicine, engineering, law, teaching, civil service, and accounting) and illiteracy was high among them. This more or less existed until the early 1950s.
Black people on the other hand, while many were working class and poor, had relatively significant representation in the civil service, the police force, teaching, and to some extent law and medicine. Most Indians of 50 years plus, would have had their initial teaching by Black teachers. My teachers were Mrs. Kelly, Mrs. Knight, Miss Austin, Mrs. Seymour, Mr. Moore, Mr. Bancroft and so on. And I went to a school where 99.99% of the kids were Indians. The village was 100% Indian. My parents were taught by Black teachers. (By the way Dr. Cummings once mocked Indians because they were all taught by Blacks - what a faking weirdo!). By the way I am 52 and this is my experience. A Black teacher could discipline, by lashing you with the wild cane, and not think twice about racism. The element of racism was not in the mind set. Mind you, Indian people just accepted that they were less endowed, and so they submitted with great deference to authority. Education in many ways brought authority.
Anyways, at around this time Blacks were in the professional services not because of racial preferential treatment but because they were more educated. They were more educated because many lived in communities that church schools. They were educated because for the most part you HAD TO BE Christian to go to the schools. They were more educated because, more Black people lived in Georgetown and they could go to the high schools. The country area, the sugar estates, had no high schools and they primary schools, mostly Anglican were located in "Black villages" with an entry requirement of being Christian (as mentioned earlier).
If you can imagine the picture: Blacks were relatively educated and significantly more than Indians; they occupied the professional classes. Chinese and Portuguese dominated shop-keeping. This is not to say that there were no educated Indians, and that there were no uneducated Blacks. But I am giving you the general picture.
The situation of the rural aka plantation Indian was basically like this: live in logie if you were still contracted; live in squat house; live in new housing scheme just opened up by the sugar estate; get a loan from the SILWF and build a small house. Some Indians had little grocery stores selling within their community and cheating their fellow Indians by “putting in” ( padding fictitious items as if purchased) when they offered credit. Some leaders in the community were the bankers – they kept the gold jewel of the community for a little fee. They obviously stole some of that gold jewelry. In the meantime, these plantation Indians worked long hours, had lots of children and kept their girl children home to do the housework, until they came of age to wrok in the back dam. The boys were told to prepare their foot bottom for the fields – to avoid shoes so that their feet did not get soft. A few here and there Indians (something like what Black people will call a House slave) got privileges from the white masters by getting their kids that first big office job. For example and Indian tailor, who made clothes for the English manager would build up the relationship to the point of asking such a favor. It worked now and again. In the earlier days, those one or two, like the Luckhoos who could speak English, got better positions in the estates.
The accumulation of early Indian money was on the backs of their fellow Indians as the token village shopkeeper and the token one who “put in” (cheating), and overcharged his fellow Indian. These accumulators eventually amassed enough to leave the village to venture into the big leagues in Georgetown. Prominent Indian cinema owners and business people operating in Georgetown got their money from here. In the meantime the plantation Indian kept chugging along, some with the conviction that their circumstances were their destiny. Others – ( more of the exception than the norm) prodded on to work a bit of rice land (no title and never more than an acre or two), tend to gardens and “mind cow”. For the most part, the consciousness of the Indian did not exist to drive ahead and do better.
For those exceptions, there was some drive. The cow-minders (this was in addition to working the plantation) and the small rice planters were the ones with the ambition to move ahead. They scraped and saved with an objective. The dream started with the intention of making their son into one of the nicely dressed up Black doctor, lawyer or headmaster. These Indians scraped and sent their children to England to study law. The culture of scraping up to send the boy to study abroad caught on. Soon more and more were sending their children to study abroad but by no means were Indians establishing a presence in the intelligentsia of Guyana. For the most part, there were some practicing doctors and lawyers – self employed people servicing for the most part the Indian community.
One of those doctors who returned was instrumental is seeding change within the Indian community. Dr. Cheddi Jagan started out working with Indian communities encouraging them to send their girl children to school. He encouraged and organized representation for workers on the plantations. Most of the workers were Indians. He called for universal education where one did not have to be a Christian to enter the government schools. He called for an end to child labor. Dr. Jagan, the son of working class Indians was creating a new consciousness among Indians. They could do better. He was seen early as a communist. Indian dogs like the Luckhoos could not identify with the masses and worked hard to destroy the work of Dr. Jagan.
Universal education became the norm. In time, Dr. Jagan and the PPP government built schools in the rural areas – like Annandale Secondary & Zeeburg Secondary. Soon Indian children were getting high school education inexpensively – prior to that, you had to have money to attend a high school like Tutorial, Indians, Burnett, Swarasat and so on. Entrance to the grade A free schools like Bishops High and Queens was beyond the reach of many Indians because of the expense to travel daily, the cost of books and poor training ground that existed on the plantations to prepare students for the common entrance.
It is not an accident when you look at the Guyana scholars pre-1955. There were less than a dozen Indians, if that many ( I can confirm for those who really want to know). Most of the scholars were Blacks, some Chinese and some Portuguese. This is an important statistic. It tells Indian racists that Blacks are not dunce. They were the leading scholars during the early part of Guyana’s history. They excelled at school and were tremendous scholars. However, as the years went on, the Indians, now better prepared from the ground up, were dominating the scholarships. Soon it looked like Indians were the only bright ones and Black people were dunce.
The production of Indians from high schools led to another change; a very noticeable one. Soon the percentage of teachers at school was heavily skewed where most teachers were brown. And soon the only ground or turf that remained in Guyana, or rather that was dominated by Blacks in Guyana remained the army.
Things started to change a lot in Guyana. Those early Indian businesses started to get big. There were plenty of Indian intellectuals. Croal Street, a street of lawyers, was dominated by Indians. The intelligentsia was becoming Indian. The political rhetoric coming from Dr. Jagan was too radical and leftist. And Guyana was on the verge of winning independence.
The CIA through the AFL-CIO pumped money into Guyana via the TUC and unions dominated by Black workers. Black worker were paid to strike, create chaos, burn down and create trouble. Raping, looting, murdering took place. Indians gave it back where they could. I don’t want to lay blame on Blacks nor Indians. We know who started it and why they started it.
Independence came post raping, looting, murdering. Independence came and the British went home. Guyana was left to deal with the shite. Blacks and Indians would never see each other the same way again. Perhaps, they might have, if there was a democratic government that was fair to people. But I think the seeds of hatred were deep post-1964 and it would have been tough for any leader. Well there was not much of a leader.
Mr. Burnham, a brilliant Guyana scholar, a native who betrayed the land, betrayed Black people and ruled for HIMSELF. Burnham may have wanted to help Black people for he had a keen sense of history and understood the exploitation of Black people during slavery. He postured and was full of rhetoric in the name of Black rights. For example, many may not know this but he banned movies where Black people played second fiddle to Whites. Burnham’s rhetoric had a dangerous side effect. It created a wide perception where Indians and other non-Blacks felt they were second class citizens. It created a perception that Burnham was a Black man who was all for Black and Black people could do what they wanted.
Out of this setting the situation in Guyana grew from bad to worse. Race relations plummeted and racial discrimination became pervasive in the society. The token Blacks were in Burnham’s circle and did okay for themselves. The government and most of the public service was dominated by Black people. Indians and other groups fled the country. Those who stayed, hustled on their own to make ends meet, lived off the barrel and peddled as traders. A hustling culture was born and Indians were dominating it because government jobs were handed out for PNC people or Black people.
In the end, Burnham never helped Black people. In fact he hurt them badly. Blacks early on, got thinking that the Burnham government would help them, became complacent and took the government jobs dished out to them. Perhaps the one area where Black people improved during Burnham’s regime was at the university. Today, and it started during the latter part of Burnham’s rule there are more Black students at the University of Guyana. At one time, it was dominated by Indians. But Blacks, developed an arrogance during the Burnham years and did little to foster a relationship with Indians. Indians did not do so either; but Indians did not see the need for they were not getting anything out of the Burnham government. They were doing things on their own. This was the rise of the Indian and the downfall of the Blacks, when change came.
Today, Indians form the intelligentsia of the country. The PPP is dominantly Indian. And the business class, Indians who honed their skills during the PNC years, and who robbed their fellow Indians a long time ago, dominate. Black people, ill trained to run their own businesses are playing catch up. The government jobs are not all theirs now. The teaching jobs are not all theirs now. And the only place where they dominate is in the police/army – places where Indians don’t want to go. It is a sad situation. But it is not a situation where Indians robbed Black people to get there. Black fcking leadership, real leadership is sadly lacking in the country. Rather than mentoring and developing Black people, the base of the representation is who owe us what and who stole this from us and who is marginalizing us. That will not work. That premise is just to say we should get in power again. And when that happens, it will start all over again and Indians will do the same thing – survive.
Thankfully, some Black people are taking things in their own hands. They are looking at the Indians and they are learning. They are getting in, scrapping it out and honing their business skills. Check out Water Street and see the number of Black people working the little stalls. I spoke at length with a young man who sells hammocks. He works 6 days weekly, 12 hours a day. He buys and sells hammocks. He dominates the market on Water Street. He told me had just bought a house lot in Canal and was building a house there. He never complained. He just smiled and smiled and was upbeat for his future. There were others but this guy sticks in my memory.
I hope this answers Mappy’s question.
John J. Kakabelly Esq.
|
Kakabelly Esq.
Admin
|
Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 02:02 am |
|
Nandy, no. it was Portuguese and Chinese. but during Burnham years, those ethnic groups, left easily because of money and some say favorable immigration rules, left the country.
Indians used to refer to Chinese as Massa when they went into their shops. Portuguese and Afros got along better; Indians were excluded from the Portuguese circles.
What you have to understand, and Dr. Walter Rodney is the leading Guyanese Black man to address this, is that Indians existed at plantation levels as nothing more than laborers. They were not in businesses for the most part, they were not in the professions (medicine, engineering, law, teaching, civil service, and accounting) and illiteracy was high among them. This more or less existed until the early 1950s.
Black people on the other hand, while many were working class and poor, had relatively significant representation in the civil service, the police force, teaching, and to some extent law and medicine. Most Indians of 50 years plus, would have had their initial teaching by Black teachers. My teachers were Mrs. Kelly, Mrs. Knight, Miss Austin, Mrs. Seymour, Mr. Moore, Mr. Bancroft and so on. And I went to a school where 99.99% of the kids were Indians. The village was 100% Indian. My parents were taught by Black teachers. (By the way Dr. Cummings once mocked Indians because they were all taught by Blacks - what a faking weirdo!). By the way I am 52 and this is my experience. A Black teacher could discipline, by lashing you with the wild cane, and not think twice about racism. The element of racism was not in the mind set. Mind you, Indian people just accepted that they were less endowed, and so they submitted with great deference to authority. Education in many ways brought authority.
Anyways, at around this time Blacks were in the professional services not because of racial preferential treatment but because they were more educated. They were more educated because many lived in communities that church schools. They were educated because for the most part you HAD TO BE Christian to go to the schools. They were more educated because, more Black people lived in Georgetown and they could go to the high schools. The country area, the sugar estates, had no high schools and they primary schools, mostly Anglican were located in "Black villages" with an entry requirement of being Christian (as mentioned earlier).
If you can imagine the picture: Blacks were relatively educated and significantly more than Indians; they occupied the professional classes. Chinese and Portuguese dominated shop-keeping. This is not to say that there were no educated Indians, and that there were no uneducated Blacks. But I am giving you the general picture.
The situation of the rural aka plantation Indian was basically like this: live in logie if you were still contracted; live in squat house; live in new housing scheme just opened up by the sugar estate; get a loan from the SILWF and build a small house. Some Indians had little grocery stores selling within their community and cheating their fellow Indians by “putting in” ( padding fictitious items as if purchased) when they offered credit. Some leaders in the community were the bankers – they kept the gold jewel of the community for a little fee. They obviously stole some of that gold jewelry. In the meantime, these plantation Indians worked long hours, had lots of children and kept their girl children home to do the housework, until they came of age to wrok in the back dam. The boys were told to prepare their foot bottom for the fields – to avoid shoes so that their feet did not get soft. A few here and there Indians (something like what Black people will call a House slave) got privileges from the white masters by getting their kids that first big office job. For example and Indian tailor, who made clothes for the English manager would build up the relationship to the point of asking such a favor. It worked now and again. In the earlier days, those one or two, like the Luckhoos who could speak English, got better positions in the estates.
The accumulation of early Indian money was on the backs of their fellow Indians as the token village shopkeeper and the token one who “put in” (cheating), and overcharged his fellow Indian. These accumulators eventually amassed enough to leave the village to venture into the big leagues in Georgetown. Prominent Indian cinema owners and business people operating in Georgetown got their money from here. In the meantime the plantation Indian kept chugging along, some with the conviction that their circumstances were their destiny. Others – ( more of the exception than the norm) prodded on to work a bit of rice land (no title and never more than an acre or two), tend to gardens and “mind cow”. For the most part, the consciousness of the Indian did not exist to drive ahead and do better.
For those exceptions, there was some drive. The cow-minders (this was in addition to working the plantation) and the small rice planters were the ones with the ambition to move ahead. They scraped and saved with an objective. The dream started with the intention of making their son into one of the nicely dressed up Black doctor, lawyer or headmaster. These Indians scraped and sent their children to England to study law. The culture of scraping up to send the boy to study abroad caught on. Soon more and more were sending their children to study abroad but by no means were Indians establishing a presence in the intelligentsia of Guyana. For the most part, there were some practicing doctors and lawyers – self employed people servicing for the most part the Indian community.
One of those doctors who returned was instrumental is seeding change within the Indian community. Dr. Cheddi Jagan started out working with Indian communities encouraging them to send their girl children to school. He encouraged and organized representation for workers on the plantations. Most of the workers were Indians. He called for universal education where one did not have to be a Christian to enter the government schools. He called for an end to child labor. Dr. Jagan, the son of working class Indians was creating a new consciousness among Indians. They could do better. He was seen early as a communist. Indian dogs like the Luckhoos could not identify with the masses and worked hard to destroy the work of Dr. Jagan.
Universal education became the norm. In time, Dr. Jagan and the PPP government built schools in the rural areas – like Annandale Secondary & Zeeburg Secondary. Soon Indian children were getting high school education inexpensively – prior to that, you had to have money to attend a high school like Tutorial, Indians, Burnett, Swarasat and so on. Entrance to the grade A free schools like Bishops High and Queens were beyond the reach of many Indians because of the expense to travel daily, the cost of books and poor training ground that existed on the plantations to prepare students for the common entrance.
It is not an accident when you look at the Guyana scholars pre-1955. There were less than a dozen Indians, if that many ( I can confirm for those who really want to know). Most of the scholars were Blacks, some Chinese and some Portuguese. This is an important statistic. It tells Indian racists that Blacks are not dunce. They were the leading scholars during the early part of Guyana’s history. They excelled at school and were tremendous scholars. However, as the years went on, the Indians, now better prepared from the ground up, were dominating the scholarships. Soon it looked like Indians were the only bright ones and Black people were dunce.
The production of Indians from high schools led to another change; a very noticeable one. Soon the percentage of teachers at school was heavily skewed where most teachers were brown. And soon the only ground or turf that remained in Guyana, or rather that was dominated by Blacks in Guyana remained the army.
Things started to change a lot in Guyana. Those early Indian businesses started to get big. There were plenty of Indian intellectuals. Croal Street, a street of lawyers, was dominated by Indians. The intelligentsia was becoming Indian. The political rhetoric coming from Dr. Jagan was too radical and leftist. And Guyana was on the verge of winning independence.
The CIA through the AFL-CIO pumped money into Guyana via the TUC and unions dominated by Black workers. Black worker were paid to strike, create chaos, burn down and create trouble. Raping, looting, murdering took place. Indians gave it back where they could. I don’t want to lay blame on Blacks nor Indians. We know who started it and why they started it.
Independence came post raping, looting, murdering. Independence came and the British went home. Guyana was left to deal with the shite. Blacks and Indians would never see each other the same way again. Perhaps, they might have, if there was a democratic government that was fair to people. But I think the seeds of hatred were deep post-1964 and it would have been tough for any leader. Well there was not much of a leader.
Mr. Burnham, a brilliant Guyana scholar, a native who betrayed the land, betrayed Black people and ruled for HIMSELF. Burnham may have wanted to help Black people for he had a keen sense of history and understood the exploitation of Black people during slavery. He postured and was full of rhetoric in the name of Black rights. For example, many may not know this but he banned movies where Black people played second fiddle to Whites. Burnham’s rhetoric had a dangerous side effect. It created a wide perception where Indians and other non-Blacks felt they were second class citizens. It created a perception that Burnham was a Black man who was all for Black and Black people could do what they wanted.
Out of this setting the situation in Guyana grew from bad to worse. Race relations plummeted and racial discrimination became pervasive in the society. The token Blacks were in Burnham’s circle and did okay for themselves. The government and most of the public service was dominated by Black people. Indians and other groups fled the country. Those who stayed, hustled on their own to make ends meet, lived off the barrel and peddled as traders. A hustling culture was born and Indians were dominating it because government jobs were handed out for PNC people or Black people.
In the end, Burnham never helped Black people. In fact he hurt them badly. Blacks early on, got thinking that the Burnham government would help them, became complacent and took the government jobs dished out to them. Perhaps the one area where Black people improved during Burnham’s regime was at the university. Today, and it started during the latter part of Burnham’s rule there are more Black students at the University of Guyana. At one time, it was dominated by Indians. But Blacks, developed an arrogance during the Burnham years and did little to foster a relationship with Indians. Indians did not do so either; but Indians did not see the need for they were not getting anything out of the Burnham government. They were doing things on their own. This was the rise of the Indian and the downfall of the Blacks, when change came.
Today, Indians form the intelligentsia of the country. The PPP is dominantly Indian. And the business class, Indians who honed their skills during the PNC years, and who robbed their fellow Indians a long time ago, dominate. Black people, ill trained to run their own businesses are playing catch up. The government jobs are not all theirs now. The teaching jobs are not all theirs now. And the only place where they dominate is in the police/army – places where Indians don’t want to go. It is a sad situation. But it is not a situation where Indians robbed Black people to get there. Black fcking leadership, real leadership is sadly lacking in the country. Rather than mentoring and developing Black people, the base of the representation is who owe us what and who stole this from us and who is marginalizing us. That will not work. That premise is just to say we should get in power again. And when that happens, it will start all over again and Indians will do the same thing – survive.
Thankfully, some Black people are taking things in their own hands. They are looking at the Indians and they are learning. They are getting in, scrapping it out and honing their business skills. Check out Water Street and see the number of Black people working the little stalls. I spoke at length with a young man who sells hammocks. He works 6 days weekly, 12 hours a day. He buys and sells hammocks. He dominates the market on Water Street. He told me had just bought a house lot in Canal and was building a house there. He never complained. He just smiled and smiled and was upbeat for his future. There were others but this guy sticks in my memory.
I hope this answers Mappy’s question.
|
Kakabelly Esq.
Admin
|
Posted: Sat Nov 7th, 2009 02:03 am |
|
| I hope to hear from my dear friend Countryman
|
Current time is 03:35 am | Page: 1 2 3 4   |
|
|
|
|
